Speaker 1 (00:12):

Greetings. And welcome once more to the Startup Survival Podcast with me, your host, Peter Harrington. In this episode, episode nine, the subject of networking to influence goes under the microscope. No startup can succeed on their own. Working in a vacuum is not an option. Startups must get out of the building and get out of their comfort zone. If they want to meet the people who will help turn a business idea into a sustainable venture, out there are potential partners, employees, customers, contractors, suppliers, influences investors, mentors, and more. But if you want to work with any of them, they have to know you exist. You have to trust them. And most importantly, they have to trust you. To help me nail the nuggets of networking, I'm going to be joined by someone who specializes in collaboration and human relationships. Amanda Dickens was trained by the very best and spent decades networking in the professional services sector before starting her own businesses and advising hundreds of startups. This pandemic may have brought some hard times, but if you are curious and want more information, so you have the skills and behaviours to network effectively, this podcast is for you.

Speaker 1 (01:37):

Hopefully, you managed to tune into Peter Melville Shreeve in the previous episode. Peter shared stories and invaluable advice all on the subject of environmental sustainability. How weird that Peter should raise the environmental impact of Bitcoin mining on the show only for Elon Musk to announce within a week of the podcast being published, that he won't now use or accept Bitcoin until he can be sure it's produced sustainably. Elon, whether you are an avid Startup Survival Podcast listener, or just happened to tune in to the previous episode, I mean, I can't believe your comment was pure coincidence, thank you for upping your green credentials.

Speaker 1 (02:22):

Now talking of green. When I first attended networking events as a 23 year young startup, I just rocked up and made it up as I went along. But like most early stage entrepreneurs, my biggest business problem back then was lack of sales and lack of money. So I probably came across as someone who was too focused on his own agenda. That mindset was a mistake and it took me a while before I developed the skills that allowed me to appreciate my networking behaviour and be able to handle and control conversations so that I made the most of my time with people. The issue of control will feature again, as we go through this podcast, but for now let's welcome my special guest onto the show. Amanda Dickens is a natural connector of people and ideas. She honed her networking skills whilst working for the big four consulting firms where they even developed networking apps so people could practice skills ahead of real world application. Amanda has over 25 years’ experience in leadership, coaching and mentoring, and now works with founders to build and scale technology startups. And thanks to a satellite and some very clever people, she is here with me now. Amanda, welcome to the Startup Survival Podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:43):

Thank you so much, Peter, really looking forward to this, going to be fun.

Speaker 1 (03:48):

Amanda, to get us started. Can you share a bit more about your professional background and networking experience?

Speaker 2 (03:56):

Yes, sure. I started my first business back in the late nineties based on the fact that I could sell to my network which I did for about eight or so years before stopping to having three children. And then I became a consultant at the big four consultancy firms where actually you're there to build really trusted relationships with your clients in order to sell to them. So it's a perfect training ground for, for networking. And since leaving the big four, I now build and scale startups with founders. I'm also a coach and a mentor for them. So my networking experience has been very much worthwhile over the years.

Speaker 1 (04:43):

So you learned your networking craft in the professional services sector. I imagine you got best in class training and support?

Speaker 2 (04:51):

Well, I really feel like I did because they actually had an internal app for networking with everybody else. So 25,000 people across several different locations, you went on the app and you could choose which networking event you wanted to go to based on your industry or technology expertise or whatever they like really. And that provided a safe space in order to practice your networking skills before taking it outside to client events.

Speaker 1 (05:22):

And how did that practice and experience benefit people?

Speaker 2 (05:27):

You get the new graduates there alongside, you know, directors and partners at these sorts of events. So you can imagine that those graduates or people who'd been in the organization for a couple of years or so, were looking to the directors and partners for, I think, role model behaviors to how you go about doing these things. Because it's quite daunting actually to walk into a room of sometimes, you know, a hundred, 200 people and start talking to them off the cuff, if you like. So perfect training ground for, for those who weren't used to it and the practice ground for those of us, who'd been doing it for 20 years.

Speaker 1 (06:05):

Okay. So thinking back to what you learned 20 plus years ago, what key skills and behaviours, did you acquire?

Speaker 2 (06:13):

I think first thing for me and I'd recommend it is to go be brave and get yourself out there. If you get invited to go to something, somebody says, come along with me to something, then you've got to be brave and do it. But that's the first thing that I would recommend. I have got a few top tips for, for that working at in-person events. First one being go to events that you're interested in. I know that sounds obvious, but think about your industry, your technology, your products, the sort of people that you want to network with and then go to those events. Meetups are fantastic. They they're brilliant for dipping a toe in the water, if you like. There's also other networking opportunities like social events go along to those as well. You never know who you're going to meet there.

Speaker 2 (07:06):

And also think about your local community. I know it sounds a little bit old school, but the, the local chambers of commerce, your local council, you know, they're all set up to help entrepreneurs now, even with startup grants and that kind of thing. So another good tip for, for everybody is to, to go along to their local events. I would also say my number one is to smile. Remember to smile when you get there and be welcoming. And sometimes it doesn't come naturally, especially if you're a little bit nervous. So check yourself. Are you're smiling as you walk in. Little things like that. 

Speaker 1 (07:45):

So moving on from the professional services experience and onto your work as an entrepreneur, how valuable has the opportunity to network been to you?

Speaker 2 (07:55):

Massively valuable. I couldn't tell you actually the ability to reach into my network, to ask for expertise about a particular product that I'm trying to build to reach out to my network, to buy something or to sell something. And actually the best thing has been to looking for talent when you're looking to hire other people as well. And I think some entrepreneurs may think that networking is something that's a nice to do and actually might focus on building the product and the tech, and actually not realize that at some point you've got to hire people at some point, you're going to have to raise money at some point, you're going to have to sell something. And that's when that you need to reach out to your network.

Speaker 1 (08:48):

Networking benefits startups, because event attendance means meeting new people for little or no cost. And early stage entrepreneurs are typically time rich and money poor, which makes networking a natural choice, but networking can't be used in isolation and forms part of a wider promotional mix. Amanda, whereas channels such as advertising and direct marketing are used to generate quick results, networking requires a long-term mindset and strategy. Is that your experience? And if so, what would you say are the implications for any startups seeking to build their business through networking?

Speaker 2 (09:26):

It is, I'd always think long term about networking. And I do lots of school, college and university talks where that working is key to starting right from, from such a young age. And people wouldn't necessarily think that that's a good use of their time, but actually think long term, you know, 15, 20 years time, that person that you linked to at university can imagine where they are now. Some of my network after 25 years, are global heads, CEOs, that kind of thing. So it's definitely worth building it from as soon as you can, you've got to get out there, build your own reputation and personal brand within your marketplace that you're going to be working in. 

Speaker 1 (10:13):

Okay, and building relationships for the long-term doesn't mean showing your face at an event once and expecting people to remember you forever?

Speaker 2 (10:21):

No, definitely not building long-term trusting relationships takes time and takes energy actually. And you're the one who's got to keep things going a lot of the time. So you've got to put yourself into it. 

Speaker 1 (10:37):

Now you mentioned that all-important word, trust, a key feature of series one and series two. We know trust, takes time to build. So what should people attending networking events do when they meet others for the first time?

Speaker 2 (10:52):

That's a really brilliant question, actually, because you've got to go into a networking situation, knowing what you want from the other person. So if you're going to an event where there's a presentation or pitches or something like that is having something to talk about afterwards and what you're likely wanting to know is why were they there? What did they think? And because you're discussing something, that's almost third party, you're starting to build a connection and a relationship there and the conversation.

Speaker 1 (11:26):

To build relationships and trust with others, what behaviors do you recommend?

Speaker 2 (11:31):

I think that they are very human in their approach. They are warm, they are welcoming. I remember once going to a networking event and talking to someone and seeing somebody hiding around the corridor behind a pillar. So we peeked around the corner and said hello. This person poked their head out. And we struck up a conversation about being behind a pillar and coming to these huge networking events and what it felt like. And he was a little bit nervous. So we brought him into the conversation, turns out this guy is a technology journalist, and I've now known him for years and we've helped each other out. So well worth being human and thinking about others in these situations, especially if you're a little bit nervous about these events, I think.

Speaker 1 (12:23):

Yes, be human. I like that. Amanda. Now you mentioned nerves and there are bound to be people startups listening to this who know they have to go to events, but fear attending because they are nervous about meeting new people and being relaxed about what to say and how to behave. A really topical point because it's like knowing you have to have a vaccine, but you hate injections. Amanda, can you share how people can combat their nerves and grow to enjoy networking?

Speaker 2 (12:51):

Anyone walking into a room full of people is going to feel naturally nervous. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. Practice, it is like riding a bike. Force yourself to do it. You've got to be brave. And actually, why don't you set yourself a couple of targets go in there the first time? I think, do you know what if I come out with two people's details or two people from LinkedIn, fantastic. The next time, maybe four. So set yourself those targets and that forces you to go and talk to people, to go into conversations where there are three or four people and invite yourself into that conversation. It takes a lot of guts actually, but the more you do it, the easier it becomes. And then you don't think about it so much. It becomes far more natural.

Speaker 1 (13:39):

And do you have advice to help people break the ice with others?

Speaker 2 (13:43):

I like to think about what I'm going to wear. I know it sounds a bit strange, but going to tech events where everybody's in jeans, trainers and black or gray, t-shirts, I'll wear something a bit brighter. And people like magpies. They honestly like to, to come to something that's a bit brighter and a bit different. Also helps that I'm a woman, in the tech industry and also you know, a brown woman in the tech industry. So I do tend to stand out. Another top tip for me is to go and stand near the snacks. Everybody likes to talk about the quality of the snacks and the drinks at events. So it's an easy conversation starter. If you're already there, people have said to me, Amanda, I notice you always stand at the drinks and the snacks. So it was like, yep. That means sometimes they don't even need to move because people naturally come to me to chat. So definitely top tips for breaking the ice.

Speaker 1 (14:38):

So we have discussed what to do when you turn up, but there's work to be done before any event starts. My advice is to avoid the mistake I made, which was to arrive in hope and instead do some preparation and planning. Of course, unlike me, you aren't working in the business stone age, you have the wonder of the internet and powerful research tools like LinkedIn to help you. So back to Amanda.

Speaker 2 (15:06):

Yeah. For those people who are pretty confident, they know that someone is going to be in an event and they want to talk to them. I have in the past done some gentle stalking. What I mean by that is look at this person's public profile. Look at their Twitter, look at their LinkedIn. What have they written? What do they like doing? And you've got natural conversation starters there where you may have had nothing in common before. So as soon as you see that person, you've got these in your back pocket to start chatting about, to instantly build rapport. And that's all important, trusted relationship. 

Speaker 1 (15:44):

People love to find common ground don't they and common ground builds trust. It is not your experience to Amanda?

Speaker 2 (15:52):

Absolutely. I once worked with FTS 350 non-executive directors and talking to them and some of them were in their sixties and seventies, you know, very, very different for me. But because I had done my background research on them, it was then very easy to start talking about, you know, their house in the south of France. I've not got a house in the south of France, but I could, I've certainly been there. So you've got some thing to talk about. If they're into cars, then you've got some things to talk about there. You know, there's, there's always something, but if you've got that in your back pocket to start off with, it makes the conversation so much easier.

Speaker 1 (16:31):

Yeah. That's great, Amanda, and I'm glad you mentioned social media because that is something I want to come back to. But before that, can we explore another issue? The issue I call the nightmare networker. In other words, the person we seek to avoid at events, have you any tips and advice, Amanda, that will help people appreciate what not to do?

Speaker 2 (16:52):

Well, I'd say over the last 25 years, there are definitely five types of networkers that I don't want to talk to. The first one, I call the peacock. This is the person who comes straight in with how great they are and all of the things that they do. They're not even trying to listen to you. The second one, I call the sell, sell, sell, because they literally come to you. You say hi, and then pitch for two minutes, without even an introduction or any interest in you at all. The third one is the overfamiliar. And this is the person who starts talking about things that actually shouldn't probably be discussed at a general networking event. Fourth one is the speed dater. That person who literally spends two minutes with you and then moves onto the next person. They're not listening to you. And then they're really not interested. And the last one is that person who just asks a little too much. Can I have this? And can you make an introduction for me on that? And what do you think about this? So those are the people that, yeah, I don't want to meet at a networking event.

Speaker 1 (18:04):

Peacocks, sellers, two familiars speed dater. And those who ask too much. Yep, yep. I've met all of those people too. Amanda, if I can let me dig a bit deeper on the seller or the pitcher personality, because there may be some confused listeners out there who have been advised to get their elevator pitch out at every opportunity. What are they doing wrong?

Speaker 2 (18:27):

They've forgotten to listen. So as soon as people introduce each other and listen to what each other does, the flow should come naturally from there rather than, and now I'm going to pitch to you for two minutes. So build a relationship first, listen to them. Don't be looking over their, over their shoulder at somebody else and see who's in the room.

Speaker 1 (18:50):

Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. Amanda. Build rapport by taking time, focusing on the other person and listening. Now for me, I've always had huge faith in the power of the question, because questions provide a degree of control and get others to talk typically about their favorite subject - themselves. And if people can talk about themselves, rapport and trust are more likely to follow. To what extent do you agree with this approach for networking? Amanda?

Speaker 2 (19:21):

I do to some extent, but because everybody is there to network with each other, I do tend to believe that that other person also wants to listen to me, get to know me. So actually it it's both ways. It works both ways. I think.

Speaker 1 (19:39):

So. You're saying you can't go to an event and just pitch nor can you go and interview people. It's about finding a balance. Is that fair, Amanda?

Speaker 2 (19:47):

Certainly right. Yes. Balance. Yeah. Expect, everybody there to want to be there for a reason. And the reason is to get to know other people, because eventually these sorts of people within your network will be able to help your business.

Speaker 1 (20:05):

When you go to events for the first time I recommend patience. And when you do meet people, ask questions. So others talk. This allows you to listen and relax. If the person you are talking to has anything about them, you should find that they will soon ask about you and your business. But before you dive into these conversations, I suggest you read the room on arrival, take some time to adjust to your surroundings by simply looking around and seeing who's there, whether anyone is on their own and whether there are any obvious activities that allow you to join in. As a top tip. If you want to strike up a conversation with someone new, look for an individual on their own, who is staring at their mobile. While it's not a hundred percent bulletproof, in my experience, this is actually a body language signal that they would like to talk to someone it's an opportunity for you to go and ask a couple of questions, find out why they are attending and break the ice. Now I mentioned a little earlier that I wanted to talk about social media because this 21st century invention allows people to network online. So back to Amanda. Amanda, in your opinion, how valuable is social media as a networking tool?

Speaker 2 (21:21):

Yes. For, for ambitious entrepreneurs, I think it's everything these days. It's how you build your personal brand and your reputation online as well as doing the offline events and networking. So things like LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all really important that you get yourself out there, but you're giving the right messages about yourself and your business so that it's consistent. 

Speaker 1 (21:51):

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Consistency is important. Can you give any pointers as to what the right social media messages are Amanda?

Speaker 2 (22:00):

Yeah. It's your opinion. Around your industry, your technology, the startup that you're building, everybody is interested in that. So think about things that people aren't writing about when you're doing something on LinkedIn on medium or wherever your, your social media platform is because there's a lot of noise and you've got to try and cut through that. And people are most interested in you, your way of thinking about things.

Speaker 1 (22:30):

One bugbear of mine on social media networks is when people raise an issue, for example, by writing a short piece on LinkedIn, but then inadvertently or perhaps on purpose, get the subject wrong. What do I mean by this? Well, for me, the subject should always be the issue, the topic, because an issue is something for us all and develops common ground. But when the writer of prioritizes themselves and typically kicks off the piece with what they know about the issue and what they may have achieved, I tend to switch off because the subject has become the individual. And I was interested to get, Amanda's take on this.

Speaker 2 (23:11):

I think it's a combination of the two. So it's your thoughts and your feelings on the issue that I think is interesting rather than focusing just on yourself or your business and what it does, or just on the issue, because people like to hear about your thoughts on it, your views, rather than somebody else's that you're just regurgitating.

Speaker 1 (23:33):

Have you any advice as to how people should write to foster social media networking Amanda?

Speaker 2 (23:38):

I think when you're writing things like that, it's got to come from the heart and that really shows, and it cuts through all of those people who are sort of boasting on LinkedIn as to all of the fun stuff that they're doing. But people writing from the heart, it really comes across. And that resonates, I think, more than successes.

Speaker 1 (23:58):

Staying with the theme of networking on LinkedIn, we seem to be living in a world where we receive more and more messages from people we don't know all asking us to connect. The message seems friendly and harmless, but it's generic nature gives away its automated roots. Amanda, would you recommend sending out automated messages with a view to expanding, you know, your own network?

Speaker 2 (24:23):

I wouldn't. I know that's done in, in sales, particularly on LinkedIn, but for your personal network, I would be very thoughtful about it. If there is somebody particularly want to link in with tell them why and tell them why a relationship would be useful to you and state that in your little notes that you send to them and you're more likely to get a positive response. And if you don't, you know, that's also fine.

Speaker 1 (24:51):

Okay. So sending a personal note specific to the recipient is the way to go?

Speaker 2 (24:57):

Absolutely specifically for them and, and tell them why you want to connect with them. Be honest.

Speaker 1 (25:07):

In business Linkedin is probably the most popular and powerful networking tool. The free version works very, very well. And for a couple of hundred dollars, you can access an annual premium subscription, which includes a host of extra features, but I'm not here to promote third party tools. And I promise no one is greasing my palm. I genuinely want you to find and use the best and most appropriate resources available to you. So far we've covered preparation, planning, meeting people and social media, but I wanted to ask Amanda, what she did after a networking event was over.

Speaker 2 (25:45):

A top tip. After the event on the way home. I usually send myself an email with a note of what I said I’d do for people whilst I was there, whether it's make an introduction or send them something. So that I've got it in my inbox actually the, the next day to do.

Speaker 1 (26:03):

And by saying you are going to do something and then you do it, helps to build trust because people are typically drawn to others whose behavior is consistent. Is that your experience?

Speaker 2 (26:15):

Absolutely always do what you said you were going to do. And that's why I make myself notes so that I don't forget. But I've got a top tip actually from a VC called Chris. And he's famous for setting up Ted talks actually. And a few things that he said, one is if you're going to do an introduction for somebody, make sure it's a double intro. So ask both parties first and then make the connection if everyone's happy. He says to always keep your emails short and sweet. This is an obvious one, but no one wants to go through three or four paragraphs before you get to an ask. So keep it short. It also says to make it really easy for people. So do a forwardable email, if that makes it easy for the person who's going to, to make that intro and make it easy for someone to say yes to your request. I think asking for somebody for a coffee or a lunch, you know, it takes some, some effort, but actually if it's just a 15 minutes call, cause you just want to ask them their advice on something, that's more likely to get a yes.

Speaker 1 (27:25):

Yeah. So, so, so take your time. When building networking relationships?

Speaker 2 (27:30):

It takes time. It also takes effort. You've got to put a little bit of effort in after that working. It's, it's great to talk to people and to send in LinkedIn connections, but then to stop there where you can't stop there, you've got to carry on. You've got to put the effort in and make, build relationships so that it does become a trusted relationship.

Speaker 1 (27:56):

Having covered a range of networking issues with Amanda. I hope you feel inspired and assured about meeting people in person and online. But before this episode draws to a close, there is one important issue. I need to cover. Amanda, it's all very well people knowing how to network, but they have to be aware of where events in that area are taking place. Have you any advice as to how people can find events to attend?

Speaker 2 (28:25):

Well, a good start is, is Google. Check out events in your industry or your particular technology or even your job title. There are tons of different conferences and events, even during the lockdown that have just become virtual. So get involved. Usually they're free to join. There are even meetups actually held all over the world and I’ve been to quite a few years ago and you get some brilliant, weird and wonderful people there, but it's a really good start actually. Because a lot of the people there aren't used to, to networking, and this is their, their first step baby step, if you like.

Speaker 1 (29:08):

And when people Google meetups, what information will they find?

Speaker 2 (29:13):

Well, you can go onto their, their website and search for events in your location and by your interest. And it'll come up with tons of, I'm in London. It will come up with events in technology, emerging technologies in London. And there'll be held all over the place. Sometimes it's in a back of the pub. But there'll be people there who are like-minded and that's what you want.

Speaker 1 (29:40):

Amanda, just before we say our goodbyes, I realise there is one final issue. I want to circle back to. We started this podcast by talking about your background, working in the professional services sector, and then your move into the startup world. As a result, you have firsthand experience of attending events with the name of a big brand on your badge, as well as the name of a startup organization that no one knows. For anyone who is thinking of making the leap from big brand to latest startup on the block, can you share the impact of wearing a known badge brand and a no badge brand?

Speaker 2 (30:18):

Yeah. So you can imagine in the corporate world, you've got your name badge on, it’s got your name, and it's got your company. And so people can see that and naturally gravitate to you because they want to sell you something. They want your help with something. So you're, you're on your feet the whole time, talking to people when you leave there and you just got your name and accompany that no one has ever heard of, it changes the dynamic completely. And whereas you had lots of people wanting to come and talk to you. Now you're the one who's got to make the effort put in the time and talk to people and be really brave in the way that you go about it.

Speaker 1 (31:03):

And how does it feel when you are wearing the known brand and people approach you?

Speaker 2 (31:08):

It makes you feel like you're in a very privileged position. I'd say that people want to come and talk to you specifically about their business, their startup.

Speaker 1 (31:21):

And for comparison. When you are a startup, how does it feel when no one recognizes your badge? Amanda?

Speaker 2 (31:28):

Oh, feels quite daunting. You by yourself, it's quite lonely. And you're talking to some people who are not interested in your business, and you've got to take that hit and be really resilient about it and get back up again and go on, move on to the next person and talk to them about your business.

Speaker 1 (31:49):

Networking to influence is, as Amanda says all about getting out there, being brave, being resilient and accepting, it does occasionally feel lonely. But the thing to remember is that you are not alone because the concerns or nerves you may have are shared by so many others. And when you share something, you have common ground and common ground is the place to start any meaningful conversation. Well, here we are, unfortunately we're out of time and I have to let Amanda go. Amanda, thank you so much for being my special guest on the startup survival podcast. It's been a pleasure to be able to listen and learn with you.

Speaker 2 (32:32):

Thank you Peter. Thoroughly enjoyed that. That was brilliant.

Speaker 1 (32:39):

Amanda covered so much ground in our meeting.

Speaker 1 (32:44):

But if you are keen to know more about networking to influence, especially if you don't see yourself as a natural outgoing soul, then let me share a recommended read. This text caught my eye mainly because of the first review I read on Amazon. The author writes, I have to admit this book has reduced much of my fear of networking, which I thought would never happen. I hate the idea of getting in a room full of strangers and trying to talk about myself or my work, but the techniques Matthew walks you through really boil it down to something predictable that can be planned for practiced and perfected without it feeling like some sleazy sales talk. So my book recommendation for this episode is The Introvert's edge to networking by Matthew Pollard. Enjoy. Hopefully this Get better, go further podcast all about networking to influence has busted a few myths and shone a few insightful lights on what is possible.

Speaker 1 (33:50):

And the most important action you can take is simply to get out there. But having trawled through the seas of networking, I must head for home now. But before that, let me thank our very special expert guest. Amanda, thank you for providing so much practical advice on this subject. Doubtless, more people will not only attend a greater number of events, but they will get more from them thanks to your shared expertise and insight. And thank you to Duncan. My producer, who for the first time in nearly 15 months has welcomed me. Well, actually I invited myself back into the studio for this recording. Hello! That’s Duncan. He's always wanted a speaking part. And thank you, Chris, for your research and Seajam moths for sponsoring the music. Finally, without the support of LJ at the London School of Economics, as well as the SimVenture team who allow me time out to do this, this podcast would not be possible. 

Speaker 1 (34:59):

In the next episode to be published on Thursday the 3rd of June, I'll be examining what startup marketing tactics and strategies work and what wastes your money. And I'll be joined by an expert marketing guest who has years of experience running and growing her own businesses, as well as advising startups. Until then your podcast feedback is not just welcomed. It's needed. Share what you really like. And let me know the truth about what needs to be improved. And of course, whatever you're listening, channel of preference, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. Until next time. My name's Harrington and this has been your Startup Survival Podcast.

Speaker 1 (35:41):

Go well, stay safe and thank you.